Flow Meter Placement?

[Greeny]

Hi,

I have a flowmeter to go into my new watercooling loop, it's one of the mcubed ones which will plug into my t-balancer. It has inlet and outlet on the same side with the water path looping round 180 degress back on itself.

I was wondering if any of you could comment on where best this would be placed within my loop or whether or not it matters where I place the sensor? Ideally I would like to tuck it out of sight as it's a tad fugly, but this would probably mean inserting it somewhere between my pump and my cpu block.

My loop will go as such:
reservoir -> pump -> 160mm radiator -> cpu block -> 120mm radiator -> GPU block -> reservoir.

Thanks,

Greenage.

[fivecheebs]

It shouldnt matter where you put it in a straight forward loop with no parallel sections mate, the flow should be the same everywhere. It also doesnt matter where in the loop the new resistance is, it will affect all parts by the same ammount.

Cheebage ;-)

[Knipex]

Cheeps is spot on.

Fit it anywhere mate.

[Greeny]

I had thought this after I posted, thanks for confirmation. I went an stuck it out of sight, had to ditch the second radiator in the loop as it had motherboard clearance issues, hope the little 160 can cope with a cpu and a graphics card.

I'll be filling the loop soon, wish me luck, hopefully I won't see water leaking everywhere this time. I'm concerend about the temp sensor leaking as it doesn't lock into the push connector.

[Starbuck3733T]

160 shoudl be fine... nexxo's got dual opterons, and a vid card on a 120!

[fivecheebs]

I'll be filling the loop soon, wish me luck, hopefully I won't see water leaking everywhere this time. I'm concerend about the temp sensor leaking as it doesn't lock into the push connector.

Oooh err! that doesnt sound good.

[Greeny]

No leaks, the 160 is coping with the heat load, but she is toasty. Reversing the fans to intake fresh air over the rad and dropping the vcore a few notches has stabilised the temperatures at a more reasonable level. I may ditch the flowmeter this weekend as it reads a piffling 0.9l/min (which doesn't look right) and I can get more flow through the loop without it I think.

I suspect the temp probe is actually meant to fit into a shorter push-fit hence why it doesn't lock into place, it would take some force to pull it out though, it's not going newhere in a hurry.

[jaguarking11]

Sounds like a big flow killer. My inline meter measures about 3L/min with 1/4inch bore on it. Maybe a pump upgrade is worth a shot?

What type of pump do you own? I would recomend a DDC or laing pump. Those have exelent head pressure.

As for removing the flow sensor its entirely up to you. However I personaly would sacrifice a fiew degrees with the insurance of a flow meter. I have my flometer pluged into my cpu header and if the mobo cant read the rpm then the machine will shut down.

[Greeny]

It's an aquastream pump, equivalent to an Eheim 1050 iirc, rated flow is around 8l/min I think. I can ditch the flow sensor and still use the rpm header on the aquastream controller to shutdown in the event of pump failure so it's not essential.

I can tell theres somewhat less flow by how high the water shoots out of the aquatube, it fires up about 2cm instead of around 4cm which I saw in my previous loop.

Can't think how I could be meant to calibrate the flow meter though if it is incorrect I have nothing to calibrate it against.

[dutchcedar]

I don't know if they're worth much, but here are some thoughts... at least the thinking I'm using on a flow meter.

Zittware made up a couple very special flow meters for BaDassumption that use 1/4" OD plastic barbs. The system will use much larger tubing. So they'll be put on their own "bypass" circuit, meaning they'll branch off from the loop and reconnect to the loop in manifolds.

That means they won't read the system flow accurately, but will certainly read flow and in the process, not impede the system at all. My thinking is that knowing the actual flow rate of the system is not important in the least, especially since reading it accurately necessitates impeding it, but knowing when it fluctuates may be very important.

Does that make sense? :wiz:

[Pug]

Sounds like a big flow killer. My inline meter measures about 3L/min with 1/4inch bore on it. Maybe a pump upgrade is worth a shot?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I read that you get crappy temps from your system anyway? :huh:

The AquaStream is perfectly adequate for managing the heatload of a PC.
I use one myself on 5.5mm ID hose, cooling a P4, 9800Pro and a Samsung Spinpoint with just an 80mm rad and a low speed 80mm fan.

Cool unfettered air on the rad is much more worthwhile than a pump upgrade in my experience.

[zittware]

Zittware made up a couple very special flow meters for BaDassumption that use 1/4" OD plastic barbs. The system will use much larger tubing. So they'll be put on their own "bypass" circuit, meaning they'll branch off from the loop and reconnect to the loop in manifolds.

Too many projects; never enough time.
I have plans to fix the 1/4" OD issue... but as we all know; relocations of long distances have a tendency to kill any modding activity.

I did finally get my CNC up a couple weeks ago... I even used it last week to "mod" a paint scraper for my MacMini. However, I still need to calibrate the x/y axis vs the milling vise.

[Greeny]

I get yer drift their Dutch, an interesting idea, will be keeping an eye out for the results. The value is unimportant, but should the value fluctuate wildly that may be of more importance than the actual measured value since it may indicate a problem with the water cooling system.

I'm going to keep the flowmeter for now since it will involve a small mission to remove it and I'm not ready to test my drainage assembley yet.

As usual thanks for the hand-holding and collective beard scratching.

[zittware]

well... "in theory" one could replace put two 1/4" flow meters in parallel and the do some arithmetic to figure out what the acutal flow is. This would give you equivalent "diameter" as a 1/2" line.

I'd think using resistance-inspired equations to calculate the flow. Product over the sum...

Flow = (Flowa * Flowb) / (flowa + flowb)

[jaguarking11]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I read that you get crappy temps from your system anyway? :huh:

The AquaStream is perfectly adequate for managing the heatload of a PC.
I use one myself on 5.5mm ID hose, cooling a P4, 9800Pro and a Samsung Spinpoint with just an 80mm rad and a low speed 80mm fan.

Cool unfettered air on the rad is much more worthwhile than a pump upgrade in my experience.

well what do you consider crappy? Also the block I run is very dependant on flow rates. and I guess 3L min isn't enough. I run a pin style block. (Polarflo TT) witch isnt known for being a high performer. It was my choice in components. (mid 30's idle and mid 40's load these days with a 33% oc on a presshot)

I was plainly suggesting a higher flow pump may be able to overcome his temp problems. However you are right in considering fresh air over a better pump.

[dutchcedar]

well... "in theory" one could replace put two 1/4" flow meters in parallel and the do some arithmetic to figure out what the acutal flow is. This would give you equivalent "diameter" as a 1/2" line.

I'd think using resistance-inspired equations to calculate the flow. Product over the sum...

Flow = (Flowa * Flowb) / (flowa + flowb)We have this conversation going in two threads. I'll post it again here for continuity (might delete it from the worklog later):

^^^ But the volume of two 1/4" I.D. lines are less in volume than a 1/2" I.D.line, even less than a 3/8" I.D. line. The flowmeter is 1/4" O.D.

I'm really not interested in knowing the actual flow through the system. Its not a value I can do anything constructive with. I'm interested in knowing if its consistant or not, but that's about it.

Its kinda like monitoring CPU's. On BaDassII, for example, I do it through Tyan's temperature control module. It says they're both at 39C. I don't care if they actually are at 39C, but know the system has been at that (fluctuates between 37C and 45C through the year) for a couple of years and that tells me all's cool in CPUland. If the monitor tells me one of them goes up to say, 50C... then I'll know something's amiss. Same thinking goes for coolant flow rates.

Hope that makes sense... :cool:

[Pug]

well what do you consider crappy?
Compared to air by your own admission, as I recall.
All I know is that a well designed rig with decent airflow over the rad will outperform any rig with more focus given to fluid flow than air.

Fluctuations based on a pump alone will generally give little outside 1-5°C variation compared to 10-15°C based on fannage (or more with a rad size increase).
Try it for yourself.

[jaguarking11]

Compared to air by your own admission, as I recall.
All I know is that a well designed rig with decent airflow over the rad will outperform any rig with more focus given to fluid flow than air.

Fluctuations based on a pump alone will generally give little outside 1-5°C variation compared to 10-15°C based on fannage (or more with a rad size increase).
Try it for yourself.

Not me, I doubt ive compared it to air since I havent run air since the p3 age and that was a copper socket 370 heatsink.

But ive compared it to my previous rig witch had a smaller heatercore and a single 120 fan witch gave me comparable results to my double heatercore. Witch come to think of it dosent get pure fresh air so I guess your rite.

Take it from the master system builder, pug.

[Greeny]

I can't permanantly live with the temperatures I'm seeing just now, 65*C load on the core2 @ 3.2GHz 1.4Vc. It's definately limiting the overclock, since I will need to push 1.5Vc+ for 3.4Ghz and atm this causes temperatures to soar to around 75*C which is thoroughly unnaceptable (though no thermal throttling is occurring).

The second radiator will have to go into the loop, I will sacrifice a 5+1/4" bay or two for cooler temps. The machine needs some more airflow in general, the sectioned Lan-Li is very hard to cool effectively at minimal noise levels. I still have 4-10 extra hard drives to stack into this thing. My room hits up to a maximum of 29-30*C at times so the cooling setup needs to be able to cope.

[Pug]

Not me, I doubt ive compared it to air since I havent run air since the p3 age and that was a copper socket 370 heatsink.

My bad then, sorry.
It was late when I read it and I can't find the quote now, so it's posssible I read it as somebody else's post that you'd replied to.

Greeny - got any system pics so we can possibly spot anything else that you might have overlooked?

[jaguarking11]

My bad then, sorry.
It was late when I read it and I can't find the quote now, so it's posssible I read it as somebody else's post that you'd replied to.

Greeny - got any system pics so we can possibly spot anything else that you might have overlooked?

We are all human, you dont have to be sorry bro. We can all make mistakes. God knows I make more memory related mistakes than most.:toast:

[Greeny]

I'll stick up some system pics once I get time, I've been doing reading on the thermal properties of the Core 2 from the Intel specifications. The Intel specs call for the PWM fan to spin from 0% to 100% between like 70*C and 80*C so perhaps the temperatures are not all that drastic after all. I stil intend to attempt 380-400FSB for everyday 24/7 operation with the second radiator installed though.

[Pug]

I'll stick up some system pics once I get time, I've been doing reading on the thermal properties of the Core 2 from the Intel specifications. The Intel specs call for the PWM fan to spin from 0% to 100% between like 70*C and 80*C so perhaps the temperatures are not all that drastic after all. I stil intend to attempt 380-400FSB for everyday 24/7 operation with the second radiator installed though.
What's your coolant temp registering as?
If it's high, then the rad will help but if not, you may want to look elsewhere, such as the block or thermal interface between it and the core.

[Greeny]

The coolant temp maxes out at around 43*C at the above setting according to the probe which is in the rez. I haven't calibrated it yet, but I imagine it's ballpark correct, the rez gets real toasty when the machine is loaded. If the second rad drops just a degree or two off that temp then I should be good for some more performance out of the cpu.

Block wise I have the Cuplex XT, TIM is Arctic Ceramique. I'm not sure the interface was exactly that great I attempted to clean some discolouration the base of the block with ketchup but just looked like I moved the discoloration around rather than eliminating it. I cleaned the heatsink and the cpu with iso-propyl prior to TIM application.

[Greeny]

http://www.clansim.co.uk/downloads/pics/c2dpc.jpg

A piccy of the system. The pump sits sideways in the top of the second hard drive rack down the bottom, the flowmeter is connected just behind that after a couple of elbow joints or so to keep it out of the way of the psu cabling a bit. The t-splitter with the ball valve is my attempt at a drainage point for the loop. 300mL's of coolant.

[AWACS]

hmmmm.... I have a similar loop though with some variations and my water temp runs at 31C idle... I have an oc:d 7800 gtx the gpu+ram block, amd 64 3500+ winchester(stock) under a cuplex evo and a twinplex sli type(will swap to the normal top once I get to ordering one), aquabox res and the airplex 120... flow is about 37,4 l/H with aquastream at 50hz... my temp probe is also residing in the res and it's calibration is just the way it was when I got the stuff... loop order: res->pump->rad->cpu->graphics->chipset->flowmeter->res... I'll get back to you with the load temps if you're intrested

[Greeny]

http://www.clansim.co.uk/downloads/pics/rear_fan_assembley_mod.jpg

I had a moment of inspiration as to how I might direct the back fan to suck hot air from around the power assembley on the board. I chopped up the stock rear fan shroud and drilled a few holes to allow it to mount round the other way. This appears to have reduced system temperature by around 3 to 5*C and reduced cpu temperature by 2 to 4*C. I think the system temperature is having a bit of imapact on the cpu temperature since the power circuitry is around the cpu area.

[Pug]

Yeah, that coolant temp is pretty high. I see now when you say a 160mm rad, you're on about a twin 80. I think the 120 will definitely be beneficial to you. :thumb:

[Greeny]

Just to update on the current situation I added the additional radiator and my temperatures are now looking pretty good. Around 10*C was knocked off all temperatures, GPU now idling at around 42*C, CPU idling at around 44*C. Load temperatures on CPU's are now around 60*C at full tilt.

The fecking flow meters not reading anything anymore which is a tad puzzling, I'll have to check the wiring. The flow looks around the same, the extra radiator didn't impact on the height of the water coming out of the aquatube to any significance.