Petrol prices

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

I was out visiting some friends at the weekend and had an interesting conversation with the old guy who owns the local petrol station. He was saying that Shell had called him last week to ask how big his price board was and would it be able to take some extra digits... Thats right folks, Shell are anticipating a major price hike that could see petrol over £1 a litre in the near future. :o

I was telling my gf who's off shore atm, she works for Shell EPP, and they are predicting that oil will $100 a barrel in the next two years. <_<

[fillip]

I was out visiting some friends at the weekend and had an interesting conversation with the old guy who owns the local petrol station. He was saying that Shell had called him last week to ask how big his price board was and would it be able to take some extra digits... Thats right folks, Shell are anticipating a major price hike that could see petrol over £1 a litre in the near future. :o

I was telling my gf who's off shore atm, she works for Shell EPP, and they are predicting that oil will $100 a barrel in the next two years. <_<

Oh good god that's just insane. :o

[Squelch]

Ouch!!

I've said for a long time. Scrap Road Tax and hike petrol prices to make things fairer. A rise in the base price as well is not going to be good.

Thanks for the heads up. Now where are those fuel cell drawings?

[Darv]

Damn it's getting expensive. :mad:

[Starbuck3733T]

See http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

[mnpctech]

$2.19 per gallon in Minneapolis today...


The VW TDI Golf/Jetta are lookin good in the future

[fillip]

$2.19 per gallon in Minneapolis today...


The VW TDI Golf/Jetta are lookin good in the future
I wanted a Supra for my first 'decent' car, luckily petrol prices in Oz are similiar to those in the US but if the situation gets worse I think i'm looking at a VW or one o those electric/gas hybrids that are now appearing - I believe the new Honda does something ludicrous like 70mpg :o

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

See http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Some chilling reading there star.

[Starbuck3733T]

Yeah, scared the poo out of me - but I can't do anything about it, so I try not to think about it too much. Essentially, this is the end.

[Risky]

I wonder does this mean that second-hand prices should fall for big-engined non-diesels?

[zer0]

yeah that site is kinda scarey... wonder if i can find a honda insight for 2000 and get that insead of my 240sx

[fillip]

yeah that site is kinda scarey... wonder if i can find a honda insight for 2000 and get that insead of my 240sx

The alternatie way to look at it is that nothing will change, all we can do now is delay the innevitable, so you may as well enjoy it while you can.

[Squelch]

That was an interesting and disturbing read.

I feel rather depressed now realizing the alternative energy technologies really don't have a chance without oil.

In less than 20 years are we are looking at a collapse of civilisation as we know it.

So what are the alternatives?

Very sobering.

[fillip]

That was an interesting and disturbing read.

I feel rather depressed now realizing the alternative energy technologies really don't have a chance without oil.

In less than 20 years are we are looking at a collapse of civilisation as we know it.

So what are the alternatives?

Very sobering.

I think the onus is on world governments to promote the use of better energgy sources, starting with the two most guilty parties - China and the U.S.

All govts have to help the R&D of better renewable energy sources though to make them a viable alternative when we do run out of fossil fuels. Without govt backing and pressure the big companies aren't willing to put their time, effort and money into things like hydrogen powered cars when everyone is still going to buy pertrol cars. Bascially, govts have to cooperate to make these future enegry sources viable now rather than in 20 years time. The fact of the matter is that we can't avoid running out of oil, the damage is done, so we need to plan ahead rather than make piece meal changes like reducing consumption or improving the economy of vehicles.

[Squelch]

Rampant consumerism has much to do with the outlook. I don't watch Tv much these days, but what I do see is greed induced makeover programs and how to buy cheap property at the expense of the indigenous population.

If more emphasis was put on sustainable living and less "I'm alright Jack" or "might is right" we'd be much better off. If the people behind that bloody frog could somehow turn it into something more constructive now they have the attention of the masses all the better. Somehow I don't think this is likely.

We're on the eve of The G8 conference, and it make me wonder exactly what will be discussed.

I've long wrangled with my consience over liking shiny new technology and cars. My transport has been taken off the road in an attempt to do my bit, and only to use it when absolutley necessary. Matt Savinor's point about the money we might be save being used by the banks to re-invest in the things that are doing the damage is a rational argument.

I don't believe everything I read so have done a little googling. There is some more interesting and less radical reading to be done at the Peak Oil Forums (http://www.peakoil.com/forums.html)

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

Fillip the problem with alternative energy cars and engines is as soon as you invent one the oil compaines buy the patent and bury it. Time to start running diesel engines on chippy oil!

[fillip]

Fillip the problem with alternative energy cars and engines is as soon as you invent one the oil compaines buy the patent and bury it.

Seriously? Even more reason for govt's to actually do something.

That's a disgrace. <_<

[Pug]

That was an interesting and disturbing read.

I feel rather depressed now realizing the alternative energy technologies really don't have a chance without oil.

In less than 20 years are we are looking at a collapse of civilisation as we know it.

So what are the alternatives?

Very sobering.

Sustainable, renewable resources.

*Pug points at light switch in tunnel*

In a word. Hemp.

We all know what the G-men think of that idea though.

gg Anslinger. <_<

[ot Factoid] Henry Ford once built a car made entirely from hemp.
Hempseed oil is not so far removed from diesel. I believe a mere timing adjustment is in order...


:h34r:

[fillip]

It's really that potent? (for want of a better word, lol.)


wow.


Do you think it'll help in attaining higher speeds?


:worried:

shocking, sorry.

Infact, everyone will be wanting a high performance machine. :h34r:

[Reitau]

BUMP just to emphasise my point in other threads :mad:

[jedihobbit]

Seriously? Even more reason for govt's to actually do something.

That's a disgrace. <_<

Whom do you think owns the govt's?!? :mad:

[ỒĊBłůē]

Whom do you think pwns the govt's?!? :mad:Chuck Norris? :huh:

[zer0]

Chuck Norris? :huh:
OMG you made my day.

[fillip]

Chuck Norris? :huh:

Lol! Chuck Norris doesn't own the oil companies, he is the oil company.

Whom do you think owns the govt's?!? :mad:

The US gov for sure, not so much the UK gov, though I do accept that big business still has a huge influence on policy here.

Thing is, in the UK we coud probably accept the increase in crude prices given certain issues in big oil producing states, but what gets us is that 60% of what we pay on fuel goes directy to the Treasury.

Imo, if prices of crude go up then the gov. should consider dropping the tax on it in line, esp. whilst everything else over here is increasing in price at a rate way above inflation.

[zittware]

The US gov for sure, not so much the UK gov, though I do accept that big business still has a huge influence on policy here.


:shock:
WHA? If that were the case; we'd be back at $1/gallon.
It's the capitolist keeping the prices high... US _CORPS_ (ie oil cos) driving the prices higher to make more profit for their stock holders.

The US Gov is powerless to do something other than put a possible cap on gas prices. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

[jaguarking11]

Last year in june, it cost me 38usd to fill up, not its around 50+ for me.

its 4.19 here for regular and 4.43 for premium.

I am considering a still for the back yard. I might as well start a compost and enrich it with sugars and drop in som yeast to kick start the fermentation. Then simply distill the shite and use it. Its not hard, I have built and used a still before. Its not rocket science, hell some of my old water cooling gear can be used as a condenser in the right circumstances.

The only exploit I am looking for at the moment is the source of starch ritch food waste and a very cheap heat source, maybe a solar panel and a couple of led acid batteries could get a heater running.

Time will tell, but I really want to run on alcohol. I would rather just fill up at home, than fill up at the gass station. I am sure I can make it cheper than the gas station too.

[zer0]

aside from the fact that distilling alcohol is illegal in the us.

I do agree with the hatred of high gas prices. i used to not event think about driving anywhere but now i find my self watching my gas gauge as i drive.

I have also been cutting down on things I do. I used to go to another town to go see movies about once a week but now i haven't seen a movie in over a month now because I cant afford to go.

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

:shock:
WHA? If that were the case; we'd be back at $1/gallon.
It's the capitolist keeping the prices high... US _CORPS_ (ie oil cos) driving the prices higher to make more profit for their stock holders.

What currency is oil sold in? The US dollar! The US economy is heavily based around oil sales so to some extent its in the US interest to keep oil as a primary energy source. It is also a nice security blanket when your sitting on the printing press. :-p

Before the war Iraq changed its oil sales from dollars to euros making it substantially more money. Soon as the US invaded it seized the oil fields and switched the sales back to dollars loosing iraq billions. Iran approached the other arab oil producers to suggest a switch to euros and the us started sabre rattling over irans nuclear programme.

[fillip]

:shock:
WHA? If that were the case; we'd be back at $1/gallon.
It's the capitolist keeping the prices high... US _CORPS_ (ie oil cos) driving the prices higher to make more profit for their stock holders.

The US Gov is powerless to do something other than put a possible cap on gas prices. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

You scratch my back...

The US gov and big business (primarily the biggest such as the oil companies) aren't and haven't been mutually exclusive for a long, long time - one couldn't really exist without the other.

As DRB says, it's in the US govs interest to keep the price of oil at a sustainably high level because it's the only stable foundation of what is otherwise a rather flakey economy. The price has risen by around 58% since 2003 and there haven't been mass protests or industrial scale strikes over it. The reason being is that people simply couldn't cope without oil so we have no choice but to pay through the nose for it, no matter how much it irks us.

I've read various publications that suggest the oil companies (not just those in the U.S.) are actually sitting on greater reserves of oil than they're letting on. As such they can charge a premium even though it's not warranted. If true, and not having inside info is obviously nothing more than speculation, then I fail to see how a govt. would let practices like that continue unless it was of an indirect benfit to them in the long run - more money in the oil company coffers could easily equate to greater political 'donations' when it comes around to campaign time.

[dutchcedar]

Oil company profits in the US... about 9%.
Government tax on oil products... about 17 to 20 some %.

Don't get me started on oil, but it isn't just the evil oogley-boogley oil companies in the US. Their profit margins are within reason (lower than most corps) and for the government to look at their profits as excessive while they hobble down the road with TWICE AS MUCH as the oil companies while doing dippety-doo-squat besides restricted stateside exploration and drilling... is either laughable or criminal.

Example... our oil companies can't drill off-shore of our coasts anymore... so who does? Cuba, using Chinese equipment and personnel drill thirty miles off of the Florida coast.

FWIW, most of the reserves in the US are on government land, off-shore with restrictions that prevent drilling or are on private land with drilling restrictions.

Don't like evil oil company profits? Buy some damned oil stock and there ya go.

George Will explains some of it better than I ever could... (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GeorgeWill/2008/06/05/holding_the_key_to_gas_prices)

[fillip]

Oil company profits in the US... about 9%.
Government tax on oil products... about 17 to 20 some %.



Highly surprising, had no idea the US gov tax on fuel was that high. Pales in comparison to our own but I thought it was below 10%.

America says to foreign producers: We prefer not to pump our oil, so please pump more of yours, thereby lowering its value, for our benefit. Let it not be said that America has no energy policy.

No specifics to back that statement up, but doesn't really quash the notion that the supply of oil is being deliberately restricted, with a view to driving up prices and in turn, profit margins.
The demand doesn't really seem to have taken a hit so it stands to reason that someone somewhere is just pocketting the extra cash.

Oil producers (be they companies with drilling rights or states such as Saudi Arabia) kinda win both ways - limit oil supply and they prolong oil stocks, whilst the price goes up due to increased demand without the increased production to sustain it.

[zer0]

Haven't the Oil companies been earning record profits for more than 3 years in a row now? It may be in part because of higher demand but has it grown that much?

I don't think Americans will protest the gas prices until we are looking at $8-9 a gallon if they protest at all. It may take a situation where there is a lack of access to gas before anyone gets mad enough to stand up.

[jaguarking11]

Well its illegal to distill spirits for human consumption.....

[jedihobbit]

Wouldn't exactly say the USG is the one inflating the fuel issue either....it is an election year and to everyone except the experts we're in a major recession. Politicians don't need the bad press, yada-yada. :lol:

[dutchcedar]

Haven't the Oil companies been earning record profits for more than 3 years in a row now? It may be in part because of higher demand but has it grown that much?The price of oil goes up, profits go up accordingly, no? Its not like there's a bean counter saying, "we need to make "X" profit per gallon. They look to make profits as a percentage return on their investment. Right now, that profit is between 8 and 9 per cent for the major oil companies in the US. Who, by the way, do not hold any of the spots in the list of the world's ten largest oil companies.

So yeah, when you have "record" prices, you'll have "record" profits.

In the same line of thinking, corn farmers are now experiencing "record" profits.

The increased demand for oil is coming largely from China and India. That affects the price of crude oil more than it affects the demand serviced by the American oil companies. So its not that demand for their service has risen as much as the cost of their goods have risen.

[Reitau]

Last year in june, it cost me 38usd to fill up, not its around 50+ for me........

$50 is £25.... costs me £65, or $130 to fill up.

[fillip]

$50 is £25.... costs me £65, or $130 to fill up.

£55 for my diesel clio, though I was also getitng ~600 miles per tank in it*.
The hire car I was in for the last 2 weeks just ate petrol though, had to fill it up every 4 days or so.


*Probably wont ever again as it's in the garage for a blown head gasket, and the garage and machinists have conspired to fuck it up royally. Not good news given in 20 days I'm on a plane to Bangkok. :mad:

[jaguarking11]

Blown head gaskets are a very bad sign.

The problem with blowing a head gasket is not just the time and labor costs to replace the gasket but also the inherited damage done when it blew. Like rods bending, piston shrink, overheating and warping, oil and water mixing and therefore killing bearings. Head warping and not sealing like it used to and therefore reduced compression and higher risk of blowing the gasket again. The list can go on, including transmission damage from a sudden lock up.

Allot of experinced engine builders will not rebuild a engine that has a blown headgasket.

I personaly would look into a replacement motor, it could be cheaper in the long run.

[Da_Rude_Baboon]

Not when your leaving the country (for good?) in 20 days. :lol:

[fillip]

Blown head gaskets are a very bad sign.

The problem with blowing a head gasket is not just the time and labor costs to replace the gasket but also the inherited damage done when it blew. Like rods bending, piston shrink, overheating and warping, oil and water mixing and therefore killing bearings. Head warping and not sealing like it used to and therefore reduced compression and higher risk of blowing the gasket again. The list can go on, including transmission damage from a sudden lock up.

Allot of experinced engine builders will not rebuild a engine that has a blown headgasket.

I personaly would look into a replacement motor, it could be cheaper in the long run.


In severe cases the above is all true, fortunately we spotted ours more-a-less as soon as it had happened. There was plenty of oil in the radiator coolant tank but no coolant had passed through to the engine, so we think that the gasket blew on one side and the pressure meant that the oil was forced out in to the coolant but not the other way round.

Annoyingly it now seems as though the garage we went to have f**ked up royally and we may well have to threaten legal action since they are now expecting us to pay for damage that they or a 3rd party have caused (when they send the cylinder head off for skimming it seems someone couldn't be arsed to remove all the injectors and now one is faulty and physically stuck in the top of the engine - hence we now have misfire and dodgy timing issues).

The engineers who skimmed the block say the garage told them not to remove the injector and that it would be handled by them instead, the garage dispute that was ever discussed. Personally I feel the garage should have removed all conponents not needed by the engineer before posting the cylinder head off to them.

Anyway, yeah, fuel prices stink. Will be interesting to see if I drive at all when in Oz as fuel is about 45% of what it costs in the UK

@ DRB: Not for good just yet, it's a 12mnth Working Holiday Visa. If we find some way of staying whilst there and we like it enough, then yeah we'll make it permanent. :thumb:

[Reitau]

Think we have moaned enough about petrol prices - maybe we just need a motoring section?? Mod?

:thumb:

[fivecheebs]

hehe! Alex you silly sod! What do you think Wheels, Wings, & Curvy Things encompasses?

:-p

I cant believe the tanker drivers are talking about striking due to pay. Right now, when peterol prices are big news. Are they idiots? They surely cant expect public sympathy? Isnt it £35,000 they want? Sounds like an awful lot to me. Does anyone know what they get paid now?

[fillip]

I cant believe the tanker drivers are talking about striking due to pay. Right now, when peterol prices are big news. Are they idiots? They surely cant expect public sympathy? Isnt it £35,000 they want? Sounds like an awful lot to me. Does anyone know what they get paid now?

100% agree Chris. £35K is not far off double the national average, so it seems like a ridiculous figure. I can't imagine they work particularly more hours than anyone else in other industries, and I would've expected them to be on some kind of rota systems so that they work a mix of shifts.

Not as though the work they do is particularly taxing either.

Step 1: Drive form A to B
Step 2: Stick a big hose in the ground and stand around for 20-30 mins while the tanker empties
Step 3: Drive from B back to A and repeat.

:shrug:

[fivecheebs]

^^ hehe! its not quite that simple for them tbh. I used to look after a 50,000 liter derv tank here. We used to sell 30,000 liters a week, and had a tanker every week. (even delivered by shell drivers too)

They do have a cushy life really, although there is some specific training for them, and it can be dangerous. I still think 35k is far too much though.

[fillip]

I see the strike is on then.

Apparently they want a 13% rise on their current pay of £32,000

Just seen the report on Channel 4 news (and funnily enough Chris, the tanker driver looked massively overworked & stressed @ Step 2 of his job, I mean, the sweat was pouring from him whilst he stood there doing his 'little teapot' impression. :nods: :lol:

[ỒĊBłůē]

When your parent company has a virtual license to print money, I guess you want your own slice of the big fat pie if you perform an arguably dangerous job :shrug:

That said; I've never been a real supporter of strike action.

[jaguarking11]

Its a bit more dangerus than it looks however. Its not just the explosion risk they have to atend to as well as general traffic dangers.

I see it from another perspective as my unkle used to drive for a tanker company. He is the boss now however.

The main danger from delivering huge amounts of petrol or diesel is the health danger. I can speak from experince with my unkle, the fumes from petrol based products are very hazerdus to ones health. There are huge carsenogenic dangers as well as increased risks for the imune system. My unkle now constantly suffers from all sorts of alergies brought up by the chemical fumes, not to mention he gets ill allot faster than he used to, and its not just old age as my father is older and has a way harder job than my uncle and he is definitly in better health.

However I am not one to agree with strikes of any sorts. It reaks havoc and has a big impact on the economy and general public safety in the case of such a vital role in everyday life. Imagine less experinced trukers delivering dangerus chemicals because the senior guys are out striking and cause acidents and general distruption of everyday life.

All I can say is it comes down to prespective. Although their salaries seem to be fairly high by the way you guys are talking about it.

[jedihobbit]

....However I am not one to agree with strikes of any sorts. It reaks havoc and has a big impact on the economy and general public safety ........


In watching how the unions work over here through the years, striking(in the long run) never benefits the rank and file as no matter the raise that finally comes very seldom are they able to even "break even" from lost pay during a lengthy strike. Oddly enough the union bosses that mandated the strike and usually do the negotiations, etc. continue to draw their 6 digit salaries during the strike.....so who is the strike really for, their salary increases for doing a good job???

[Jag]

Seems that as the Chinese gradually move from bikes to cars, we in Europe will gradually do the same but in the opposite order.

This is all a big mousetrap.

[jaguarking11]

Seems that as the Chinese gradually move from bikes to cars, we in Europe will gradually do the same but in the opposite order.

This is all a big mousetrap.

you stole my name!!!!!!!!! J/K

Actually, not to sound like an ass but, there is no way in hell I am trading in my car for a bike. I would rather drive it on the weekends for pleasure than trade it in.

Although, all this craziness has me wondering how expensive would it be to convert an old car to EV and possibly make it sporty too. I think I will start with a small wind turbine first though. Just gotta figure out what kind of generator I can build.